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 War & Peace

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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:03 am

Well this could result in a very long topic so what else could I call it?
My aim of this post is to pool all the well reasoned responses to a great many topics which have already been covered in the past and also some still to come. This will hopefully bring about some clarity as to the what the fans/drivers/promoters desire to see happen in our sport in the future.
So I will post a list of catagories likely to be covered below and will then copy and paste the agreed outcome to any debate in the next post down. This will keep it clear without having to read through a hundred posts.
Like the idea? Then lets start our mass debate!


Last edited by Grafter on Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:05 am

A; Safety

B; Car specification
A stock car can only be constructed from road legal OE parts approved by the BSCDA (these parts may be modified to an agreed spec' after consultation with the BSCDA technical committee). If OE parts become rare/unobtainable then aftermarket alternatives will be sourced and added to an approved list of parts. Other after market parts can only be added to the approved list if they are of similar cost to the OE part (or less) and they do not lead to major performance gains which would result in more expenditure on other drive train parts due to more strain being put upon them. Engines would still be unlimited/naturally aspirated/cast iron block.
If any after market parts become rare/increase in price significantly or quality deteriorates.....then drivers will be given notice of these parts being removed from the approved list.

C; Race procedure

D; Promotion

E; If we had the money


Last edited by Grafter on Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:57 am; edited 3 times in total
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:43 am

Ok. I'll set the ball rolling and try to keep it topical. Our new world champ in F1 has just done a great little interview for F1stockcars. In the interview Tom says he would like to have big sticky tyres and go even faster (making full use of his expensive engine and possibly leading to even more expensive engines thus leading to even fewer drivers racing imo) but he doesn't like the shoot outs owing to more damage to cars.
On the other hand you have drivers like Adam Slater who have sadly left F1 saying......

"Ok so here goes. i left F1 mainly because of the time spent on the car and the cost.

Last year i spent almost £2000 on racing. ALL year. i may have missed the odd tyre off here or there and i did blow a gearbox but im not far off because the previous year i spent £800 so with the gearbox last year im close. i did 15 meetings on shale.

This year ive spent £2659.91 on the rebel. However that includes campsite costs etc that we didnt have last year. fuel has gone up and my workshop rent has increased £11.50 a month and only i get in for free, so i have to pay for the wife (except at buxton). ive done 18 meetings and had a lot more time with the wife and boy!  

F1       =£130 ish per meeting
Rebel  =£147ish per meeting

i made blue in the F1s. You DONT have to spend big money to have fun and be reasonably competitive.

A great achievement and to think that TALKIN******  raised around a grand to get Mr Hines a new carb' earlier this year......that could have kept Adam out racing for another 7/8 meetings. I'm not Knocking the folks who donated BUT it does bring things into perspective as regards budgets drivers have and the number of cars out on track. I personally think the old saying is true "too many cars on too smal a track" is best.....but what is the best way to achieve this? I would rather see 10 Adam Slaters on track than 1 Tom Harris but that is just me.....i'sn't it?
Now BSCDA are looking at a control Shock absorber/coil over unit. If that happens then thats just another nail in the budget racers coffin who sometimes make their own coil over shockers for £25 a pop and just want to get out and have some fun.
So lets be reasonable and have a criteriea that keeps to the original spirit of what makes our sport unique.
Use as many off the shelf stock parts as possible so long as those parts are A; freely available and cost no more than aftermarket parts and B; the aftermarket parts do not lead to a major performance gain that will then lead to other cheaper off the shelf stock parts then breaking further down the power train and thus needing to be upgraded to (possibly) more expensive aftermarket parts to stop the failures.
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tim1203

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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:41 am

To be honest Grafter, there is only one issue that will determine the future as I see it and that is go down the road of faster, racing cars as Tom wants to go, or restrict car building to go back to stock car racing.
Sprint cars are great, but they are not stock cars, unfortuneately F1's are getting very close to sprint cars on tarmac and "stickier" tyres, racing brakes etc etc will only hasten the inevitable, as if that's what the top drivers want, that is what will happen. Sad to say that'll mean less drivers, less contact and possibly even two types of F1 stock cars - two separate fan bases - Bad news.

Someone once famously said on TV "money talks", how true those words.
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Spannerman

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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:05 am

Sounds like we are going back to the stock car A and stock car B days of the 90s when i stopped going for 5 years Sad 
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:43 am

Spannerman wrote:
Sounds like we are going back to the stock car A and stock car B days of the 90s when i stopped going for 5 years Sad 
Where you there the night Bobby Burns had just won the GN at Stoke? He said on his victory lap "my cars a "b" car and the "b" car racing was great and the "a" cars were CR@P!" very closely followed by one of the biggest cheers from the remaining crowd I have ever heard.
One thing which has always kept me going to watch F1's is the ability of some drivers/teams to turn something which was never intended to be raced/crashed into something which makes you stand back and say "I like that guys thinking - nice work". Yes we all know if we go down the route af all aftermarket parts the cars will become faster/more reliable?/handle better? but at what COST? We could easily go down the route of big sticky low profile tyres on 18" rims, along with bigger discs and racing calipers and pads BUT then the Transit axles would have to go for sure as they will not be strong enough to cope and would just twist under braking/ halfshafts would break more/diffs will blow more/gear boxes will explode more - so more bespoke/aftermarket parts will be needed.
There NEEDS to be a critera to work from which will ensure any new aftermarket parts introduced will not lead to more aftermarket (expensive) parts becoming a necessary evil (I for one am sitting on the fence with baited breath to see if the new tyres work out as planned - but I hope they DO). This critera must be set in stone as the founadtions of the sport for it to look to the future and say "this is what we stand for and NO ONE is going to change it". Like Tom says "if you don't like it go race something else".
As for me I will always admire the likes of Mr Cayzer with his hand made inlet manifold formed from some bits of 30x40 box section steel or Lundy and his "special" torque arm.
Even the likes of Mr Witts said over 10 years ago that the cost of racing was getting silly back then (and thats when he had those fancy hydraulic weight jackers on each coil over).
Like I said lets get the foundations right for a start so things can't come falling down later........
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:43 pm

.. What !!!...  affraid .
I'm just scanning this lot, as got to go in a min.. Crying or Very sad .
But has The WORLD CHAMPION said that he would like FASTER cars and STICKIER tyres ??..   scratch ..
 " And suggests fans who think otherwise should go and watch V8's ?  or words to that effect..  

cos if that's the case..  
The hits are gonna get harder, accidents when they happen are gonna be bigger.      Newson, Johnson and Finnikin at Buxton  that wont happen again i'm telling ya!   they are amazingly lucky!      next time one of you expect the worst...    

Re-  Faster and more expensive, what do you expect from the guy who's throwing the most money at it, and reaping the benefits scratch .  
  Next someones gonna tell me  "IT'S NOT THE CAR, IT'S THE DRIVER!"     lol! ..
Well what about Nigel Haarhhhy admiting on a weekly basis he is rubbish on shale, and to the best of my knowledge in 2 years on shale you can count the number of finishes on one hand, best being 10th out of 10 cars N.O.F.    Well last week he bought a Stuart Smith car 6 yrs old, first time he plonks his arse in it he finishes 2nd !!...    
 No cant be the car...   GIVE YOUR HEAD A WOBBLE!!!   Idea .
Also...  Is this the same driver who got 'last bended' in the Buxton semi, still finished second, but had a paddy in the car then told all and sundry it was OTT  Crying or Very sad ..     NEWSFLASH!!    it was next to nothing, and expect hits to get harder Tom...

Re-   "fans who dont like it?  go and watch V8's"  or words to that effect...
How about you stop ruining   STOCKCARS  and  go racing mascars, or go and race in Holland with Scothern, they like fast roundy-roundy over there and take your flamin traction control MSD box with ya!!!...  
 (just pulling your leg about the MSD(i know it winds him up-lol)....

May i suggest F1 Stockcars finds a niche somewhere between V8's and todays Stockcars and try somehow try to replicate the late 90's-early 2000's era..   V8's dont look like a F1 Stockcar NOR sound like one, so please stop referring fans to the V8 formula.
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tim1203

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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:27 pm

Well thats the Harris family off your christmas card list then Sausage lol, for a postie you dont do much to promote christmas cards being posted to you Smile

How do you get stickier tyres ? I know you get a tin of ----- automatically deleted comment to prevent total chaos until the poster comes forward with thier £150 -----
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:21 pm

Bah Humbug!!..
       
Tiiiimmm.    Suspect ..  
 
Dont tell me your also rolling over and showing your belly lol! ..
We bang on about 'this-an-that' on here till out hearts content, but should a Promotor or Driver challenges our rants,  everyone runs in the opossite direction  Rolling Eyes .        
Honestly, stockcar forums are just like that kids 70's Tv programme 'RUNAROUND'  with Mike Read.

............................  Right Kids.....RAN-AROUND !!!  ................
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tim1203

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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:35 pm

Haha, no just wait till only 16 cars are racing, no one prepared to pay to watch rubbish and promoters say "we're better off having bangers" then we can say "TOLD YOU SO"
Tom is the second driver to say go watch something else, he also said a forum used to be great but was b****x now - good when it was dishing out cash but b****x when that stopped is what he meant.
Sausage is right though about drivers / promoters but the book of excuses is almost used up now.
So no, i'm not rollinh over mate, far from it, voted with my feet since August, and it depends on thier agm in wheather I come back next year as if I have to watch overweight sprint cars I'll watch the real ones and not wannabe stock cars.
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:52 am

Car spec' now updated. Go on tell me you don't like it  bom 
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bm7921

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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:57 pm

sausage wrote:
.. What !!!...  affraid .
I'm just scanning this lot, as got to go in a min.. Crying or Very sad .
But has The WORLD CHAMPION said that he would like FASTER cars and STICKIER tyres ??..   scratch ..
 " And suggests fans who think otherwise should go and watch V8's ?  or words to that effect..  

cos if that's the case..  
The hits are gonna get harder, accidents when they happen are gonna be bigger.      Newson, Johnson and Finnikin at Buxton  that wont happen again i'm telling ya!   they are amazingly lucky!      next time one of you expect the worst...    

Re-  Faster and more expensive, what do you expect from the guy who's throwing the most money at it, and reaping the benefits scratch .  
  Next someones gonna tell me  "IT'S NOT THE CAR, IT'S THE DRIVER!"     lol! ..
Well what about Nigel Haarhhhy admiting on a weekly basis he is rubbish on shale, and to the best of my knowledge in 2 years on shale you can count the number of finishes on one hand, best being 10th out of 10 cars N.O.F.    Well last week he bought a Stuart Smith car 6 yrs old, first time he plonks his arse in it he finishes 2nd !!...    
 No cant be the car...   GIVE YOUR HEAD A WOBBLE!!!   Idea .
Also...  Is this the same driver who got 'last bended' in the Buxton semi, still finished second, but had a paddy in the car then told all and sundry it was OTT  Crying or Very sad ..     NEWSFLASH!!    it was next to nothing, and expect hits to get harder Tom...

Re-   "fans who dont like it?  go and watch V8's"  or words to that effect...
How about you stop ruining   STOCKCARS  and  go racing mascars, or go and race in Holland with Scothern, they like fast roundy-roundy over there and take your flamin traction control MSD box with ya!!!...  
 (just pulling your leg about the MSD(i know it winds him up-lol)....

May i suggest F1 Stockcars finds a niche somewhere between V8's and todays Stockcars and try somehow try to replicate the late 90's-early 2000's era..   V8's dont look like a F1 Stockcar NOR sound like one, so please stop referring fans to the V8 formula.

absolutely agree with most said. I personally have been told by 51 and 4 via facebook to go watch something else and now we have the world champ saying same thing with chris cowley also sating we can go do one. Do zome of these drivers not understand that if fans dont watch promoters wont offer fixtures resulting in large expensive machines being good for nothing.
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:02 pm

51, 37, 84/1 and now 4.
Is it any coincidence they are all  drivers in there twenties?.   This may now be a case of trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted..   ask yourself;  "are you an old fart ?". " a dinosaur, stuck in the past?" .
They are the future.. you are the past perhaps?. You can only halt 'progress' for so long, youngsters have more spirit and fight.
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woodie 64



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:27 pm

sausage wrote:
51, 37, 84/1 and now 4.
Is it any coincidence they are all  drivers in there twenties?.   This may now be a case of trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted..   ask yourself;  "are you an old fart ?". " a dinosaur, stuck in the past?" .
They are the future.. you are the past perhaps?. You can only halt 'progress' for so long, youngsters have more spirit and fight.


yes but shouldn't that spirit and fight stay on track between the green and chequered flag lol Laughing 
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: War & Peace   Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:03 am

Are there signs of a difference of opinion appearing in the Harris camp? Or has Tom had a wake up call just lately? Bosy (Toms step mum) has stated "Tom has been very lucky to walk away from his car but it's been a different story for both Theo and Danny Smidt, the speed of these cars on Tarmac needs addressing or the contact side of things needs taking away, before there's another serious injury. All you spectators who want to see crash and bash every week need to understand the outcome is not always good, all these drivers have families to support and daily lives to live, and their safety should come before your enjoyment!"
Some crashes are are unavoidable and only crumple zones will help in these incidents (Eg. Car spun half straight and stationary being collected moments later buy an unsighted driver). Then there are incidents involving the fence......here there is huge room for improvement but it would come at a high price. These issues are not unique to UK/European ovals......you only need to read a couple of coroners reports from New Zealand to appreciate the similarities.
But stockcars without contact would be like Cricket without a bat.......even non contact formulas are not immune to heavy hits at times.......its a risk all drivers know and accept or they would not go out on track. But keeping the hits within a injury minimising limit has to be the goal. If a higher safety standard for both car and fence were adopted we might see more drivers coming into the sport also.
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