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 Shock-horror.....

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sausage



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PostSubject: Shock-horror.....   Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:49 pm

Anyone any thoughts on the shock/damper revelations currently going ballistic over on Stoxnet?.
My two pence worth, is that decisions have been taken re tyres and shocks, tyre stamping etc to give the fans exactly what they want, which is a more level playing field/track and a return to more competitive racing, especialy on tar. We all know who's being targeted here, and there argument is a valid one which is, I'm more of an innovater put me in the fence if you don't like what I'm doing.
Ryan Harrison combated this potential dilemma by simply bullying everyone and letting it be known what would happen should anyone dare stick the bumper on him, and bizzarly it worked a treat. There was a meeting at  Northampton towards the end of last season where to a man the reports that came back were that he's got perfectly legal bits on that car and its making the spectacle a farce. I dont buy into that tosh regarding the cordoning off of the car (parc ferme)  due to someone tampering with his car. I'm not having that one.
More likely he's sourced bits, probably from the states, and he dont want prying eyes discovering  what he's using  to gain such an advantage?. Tom Harris is alleged to also flatly refuse to hand over any bits of his car to become comman knowledge, again I must repeat there is NO suggestion of illegal parts, simply he's done his research and  turned up some state of the art parts for his motor, and feels hes being harrased unfairly due to doing nothing wrong. Unfortunatly for these two, the progress there making, and no doubt they are at the cutting edge, regarding technology and the two best car builders. Not all progress is good, and coupled with today's hard times,  no other bugger can keep up, both on and off track. And the racing is suffering as a result. F.W.J  probably spent a decade plus doing what Ryan and tom are doing in innovation, but when wainman was there age it wasn't such a problem as there was an abundance of cars about and no recession .
Tyres, now shockers, I say get behind the board who are being pro-active with restrictions and there will probably be more to come. Would you rather they did nothing, and avoid getting slagged off left right and centre while stockcars morph into sprint cars.
The new board you could not hand pick a better crew. Lord only knows what there gonna think ?  In the morning when they read the 3x page (so far) anihilation by stoxnets assembled experts.
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:00 am

Well times have changed and are still changing. One thing that has still to change is the willingness/ability to communicate in this techincal age........its so easy/so many options. It just needs the right people driving it to make it work. How many drivers/mechanics for teams still solely rely on a snail mail news letter for upto date info? I guess 99% of teams will have access to a pc/tablet/mobile phone ect. So there is no reason teams can't be kept upto date with current events and thinking.
With a good system in place teams would not be in the position they are now (rumour/uncertainty) and they could be prepairing for the future with confidence.
Looking at the point in question.......some drivers are worried about the cost of replacing dampers and the inevitable damage they will get (Dampertech it would seem are a distributor for the shocks and not a manufacturer......are these GAZ shocks as made by Gazzard engineering?). Anyway I digress.....the fact is the new shocks being brought in are ali bodied not steel which was voted on at the AGM and are at the very top of the price range looked at (plus VAT on top) also there appears to be no info' on the availability of reconditioned shocks and if these are available to buy without first buying a new one. All the eggs in one basket is another concern along with no info' on a supply/pricing contract for future.
I'm sure the fact that this has be looked at at all is very well intentioned BUT the implementation seems to suck a bit.

Ps. Does this mean that leaf springs are now banned?

Going onto the proposed control rally tyre rule. This will see very similar issues raised regards costs and availability (a sole supplier is asking for trouble in my eyes).
So lets not forget that stockcar racing is about TOO many car on too small a track. Some drivers just want to be out there and wanting to be part of the show and not just winning!
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A1 NOS

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:14 pm

I'm sure there is a lot of stuff going on that your casual fan doesn't appreciate.
I for one didn't really know about all this "shocking" manipulatin of the absorbers.

Easy one to sort out really.

If I was a racer and I had a more than reasonable supcicion that someone was cheating I'd stick him in the wall and continue doing it until they stopped.

I'm really hoping next year sees some back to basics quality stock car racing.

It's what all the fans need.

I totally agreed with Steve Rees interview before Sheffield about Rockingham.
We don't need that sort of thing in this sport otherwise it won't be the sport we love anymore.
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:28 pm

Can I just reiterate, that no-one is under suspicion of cheating. It's pretty obvious these two lads are at the cutting edge, spending the wonga and not prepared or under obligation to share there secrets. Nor has anyone in the past either. Unfortunatly upping the bar this much, at this present time is having an effect on the racing spectacle.
Hence something is being done to address this. Any driver could come along and outspend the rest on there engine but all that power and cash spent on it useless if you cant lay it on the track. Clamping down on tyres and shocks is the cheap way to stop thousands being spent on the engine is it not?.
Some drivers might not like change but the racing will surely improve in the long run.
As a side issue, an extra few quid on shocks is a drop in the ocean compared to what they don't mind spending on spray jobs or sign writing.

One more thing.. re stuffing a foe in the fence A1, sounds good in theory, but when the driver starts behind you and a damn sight faster, he can stuff you in the fence whenever he feels? Or pass you as normal then vanish out of sight. You dont get a chance to put him away . lol! y
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mod77



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:30 pm

Not sure whether I totally agree with you sausage regarding "an extra few quid on shocks is a drop in the ocean ..... " I think the main moan is that drivers are being forced to spend £600. Although I dont understand one shock from another some drivers use £30 shocks - why could everyone not use them.
I sprayed my own V8 for £100 paint, complete car and aerofoil got signwritten for £150, but once done its done. Car could remain untouched for years. £600 shocks and if you bent 4 in a years racing another £600
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:13 am

I hear you mod.  It is fascinating watch this one unfold.  I'm picking up on the  bits in amongst all the scrap, and one good point raised is that Brisca f1 is the top drawer and if you're in it (competing), then you're dining at the top table. Unfortunatly people are talking extremes,  Brisca f1 is not for skint members. There is another extreme however going on. car builders selling cars (and there's a que for them) for 30-40K shall we say.  That is more money, far more money now being spent by some than ever before. Imagine having Nigel harrhys budget, or dave rileys and be in your early 20's  affraid ..
It's scary.  You throw insane money at it, be young enough to have the reactions and reflexes if a cat  then you're gonna clean up, fair enough, but were losing , action, fans, and drivers.  Is it any coincidence that Ryan and tom share the following four titles ??.   World champ. European champ. Shootout champ. Gold /world cup.  If you wanna win one of these titles? Forget it, or re-mortgage your house.
Might be idle chat? But the grapevine reckons toms building ryan a tar car right now . In business there is such a thing as the monopolys and mergers committee which stops someone getting to big, and the rest fighting for crumbs then ultimately walkin away. That's sort of what's going on here with the drivers committee. Someone is getting too big/dominant. Whats this lot got to do with shockers? . Dunno, I've lost my train of thought, and im hungry. See ya tomorrow boys and girls.  tongue 
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Zep

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:42 am

If the problem with shockers has been created by a minority, surely it could have been nipped in the bud.
If the BSCDA knew there was a problem, they obviously knew who had exacerbated it. So why drag everybody else into it?
Talk about using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut! bom 

The parts, specs, costs, contracts etc don't interest me in the slightest unless it affects car numbers. I only watch. If Michael Scriven & Mark Gilbank decide not to race after the first gradings or the last WQ rounds, how many more might do the same?

I won't be spending money on petrol or admission to watch less cars. I pick and choose now, do a lot less meetings than I used to do and if it becomes even less, so be it. I'll still enjoy it when I do decide to go and of course there are other formulae even though BriSCAF2 are losing dozens of drivers a year because of their petty rule changes.
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:18 pm

Lets just have a recap of some points that have been made and I will try to put accross some well reasoned questions and a little summary.........
1; Its been stated that 90% of drivers currently run Protech/5star shocks.........why not invest in a shock dyno for the sport (some drivers already have one and a basic one can be bought for under £2000) ,like the scales for weighing cars, then once passed seal them with a holographic seal and initialed by the tester and then sprayed with laquer (if damaged they must be re-tested).

2; Drivers at the AGM voted to allow the committee to find a single control shock.......was there the option given to vote on more than one control type shock offered to the drivers or a test/seal option put up for voting?
The info given on voting does seem a bit vague and one driver has questioned the professionalism of the AGM (taken from Stoxnet post #105)
Hi. I dont normally post on here but thought I would pass comment.

I did attend the AGM and to be honest didn't feel like it was run very proffessionally. We the drivers in attendence did leave the shocker decision in the hands of the committee as they DO represent ALL GRADE drivers. HOWEVER what disappoints me as Nigel has mentioned was WE agreed that the shockers would be 60 -100 at a maximum of 120 not then escalated to 144!!!! Which we subsequently found out in the latest newsletter.

The numbers for the voting also don't add up!
(Stoxnet post #52 P.Hines) Frustratingly a lot of drivers that are unhappy are not one of the 60 or so drivers who were at the agm.
Then we have.....
(Stoxnet post #136 M Newson) No not at all Nigel this is because you were one of the drivers along with 20 others that voted for a control shock that everyone had to run on
So how did the vote get carried  scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch scratch 

3; Why go to shock suppliers and tell them to tender for the higher amount or less? (Stoxnet post #107 M Newson)
Every shock company was sent the same tender which stated send us what you feel is the best shock you do for £120 plus vat or less
If It was me (and did not want some sales person to take me for a mug). I would say that 90% of drivers are currently using a £85 shock all in. Please quote us your best shock for suited to our sport for this price or less. If the results of this was unsatisfactory then re-tender for a £100 shock and see what comes back. Giving out a top price to start with is asking to be mugged.
4; Is there going to be a vote/egm to allow a change in the rule book and allow in ali' bodied/mono tube shocks (currently banned)?
5; If the new Dampertech/Gaz shock is allowed in as the control shock will the recon shocks only be available at £50+ vat on a exchange basis?
6; How long a contract and pricing structure has been agreed with Dampertech (drivers are not going to be impressed with a sole supplier increasing prices year on year by £10+ OR the contract ends and re-tendering goes out and everyone has to change again in 1/2/3.....years time). All your eggs in one basket IS VERY BAD.
7; How is this rule going to affect the Dutch racers (especially those which race at Emmen under BriSCA rules) are these shocks going to be suitable for field racing also?
8; Are leaf sping set ups now banned?

So those are some of the questions still to be answered. I'm sure the answers are there but have been lost in communication during the several meetings held to discus this matter prior to the AGM/newsletter.

The scenarios which are coming into play now could be.........
1; A loss of more shoestring/grass roots drivers due to initial costs plus higher replacement costs (plus new drivers have a steep learing curve and inevitably incur more damage including shocks - just ask Mr Harrhy how many he go through in his 1st season!).
Taken from Stoxnet post #111 P Hines
The comittee's objective over the next three years is to bring the overall cost of racing down and increase tyre car numbers. If the initiatives brought in this winter do not do that then measures will be taken to make sure it does.
I hope this proves to be the case in point as I would sooner see 10 new good budget racers out there and lose 1 top driver over this if push came to shove.
2; There is also going to be some loss of design inginuity (more off the shelf type clones racing). What did the BriSCA fans survey ask for?
3; Also with the added expense to the budget racer I can see a small plus side (but it could be a down side in complication terms and man hours). With a gas shocker it can be layed flat (unlike oil filled ones) of even used upside down.......this could lead to car builders cashing in on laser cut bespoke cantilever systems which could put the shocker out of site/harms way to some extent. A clever budget racer could do the same but it would involve a lot more man hours to build/set- up (read into this track testing sesions and more expense).

At the end of the day...........if the rule book had been written better then drivers would not have used the opportunity to bend the rules as far as some have..............maybe that is the simple solution! Just tighten the rule to read something like this.........
"Only 1 shock absorber may be fitted to each wheel on the car. The shock absorber must come from an approved list and not be modified from stock in any way. It must fit the following criteria (a) cost no more than £135 inc vat (b) be readily available for all drivers to purchase (c) be dyno tested and sealed prior to use (on BSCDA in house tester - drivers may observe this process)
Any shock absorber not on the approved list must be passed to the committee for evaluation first and tested for suitability/durability before being added to the list.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.........I think!
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 1:59 pm

Grafter..
Do you know what the ruling is on random testing?.    
Are drivers allowed to say something like "Take me for my word, or i will X,x or x.    Tester now has a bit of a conundrum  pale 
If random testing of any thing attached to a stockcar was to become more common place?.   Then ..

(A)..   It has to be clarified, that NO-ONE gives the tester any grief whatsoever!   any  team  bieng random tested and sees fit to make life unduly awkward, or any sort of intimidation, sarcastic comments. will be hauled infront of the comitee and each case treated on it's merits.

(B).   Testers in pairs, to witness Tester No 1 doing the testing, and note results, also short report/conclusion.

Not easy but try and keep it simple, as Stockcars on the day does for the most run itself and enjoys the freedom of drivers and fans not being marshalled.   No-one wants jibes like "Jobsworths"  and "Pit Police"  etc-etc....

..... Again, I've not read it all, but theres no illegal activities going on by anyone i dont think?...    
These random tests could be a stealth way of keeping tabs on the latest bit of innovation, and the direction the sport is going on.    No-more bombshells.  No more talking behind others backs of what they reckon is going on regarding getting the upper hand.
If U.S parts are gonna be flooding the market?   then It's good stuff, and needs monitoring as not many would know how to source it, or know what there after in the first place lol..  Resulting in the 'hav's'  and the 'have not's'.....
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carlton



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:18 pm

Roving technical scrutineers ? F2 went down this route a few seasons ago.

Great idea, just ask Ian Gardiner what happened when his van turned up a domestic session.
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:32 pm

Sausage........I think you need to read all my reply. No mention of random checks or roving scrutineer. Just well written rules and sealed units (this could be done on mass the day prior to the AGM for instance - might get a few more drivers to go then - kill 2 birds with one stone, now that might even save a few pennies).
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:24 pm

Grafter wrote:
Sausage........I think you need to read all my reply. No mention of random checks or roving scrutineer. Just well written rules and sealed units (this could be done on mass the day prior to the AGM for instance - might get a few more drivers to go then - kill 2 birds with one stone, now that might even save a few pennies).

Ah, i see what i've done there Grafter  Embarassed .. Not suggesting you were alluding to anything mucker  Laughing .

I was just repeating what i said earlier, issuing a disclaimer..

Meant no-one i dont think anywhere this week has anyone started making outragous claims of cheating...  Wink 
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:26 pm

carlton wrote:
Roving technical scrutineers ? F2 went down this route a few seasons ago.

Great idea, just ask Ian Gardiner what happened when his van turned up a domestic session.


 Suspect .. Keen to hear this one Carlton!!  Smile .. A pm would suffice...
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big mac



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:47 pm

carlton wrote:
Roving technical scrutineers ? F2 went down this route a few seasons ago.

Great idea, just ask Ian Gardiner what happened when his van turned up a domestic session.


And in the end even he got "Shi....on" from a very great height, by the very people who wanted him to do the job!!!!
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bwplive.com

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:07 pm

I think Rebels are a good idea
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Dave Wayne

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:38 pm

carlton wrote:
Roving technical scrutineers ? F2 went down this route a few seasons ago.

Great idea, just ask Ian Gardiner what happened when his van turned up a domestic session.

Would that be a Northampton meeting when he turned up halfway through ?
As his van pulled in to the track on the home straight, I seem to remember a fair number of higher grade drivers who had already qualified for the final and were just about to watch the consolation suddenly disappear down into the pits with their mechanics !!
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carlton



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:42 pm

Yes Mr Wayne it could be.

One of many meetings when panic suddenly struck when "The Gardiner" turned up !!

It proved a point, many F2 drivers were running outside of the rules, if Ian found a car illegal, white top or superstar, you were in trouble.

To give Ian credit, he stuck to his guns, he lost a lot of friends, but he can hold his head high, he had a job to do and did it extremely well.

Does F1 racing need a roving scrutineer ?

If it does, I've nominated my candidate.

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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:32 pm

bwplive.com wrote:
I think Rebels are a good idea

I dare you put that on stoxnet Baz...  cherry .  affraid lol!   Twisted Evil .  bom 
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A1 NOS

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:15 am

Maybe these new shocks are a little bit like Fairy Liquid washing up liquid.

More expensive than the cheap s***e but you don't use as much so in the long run works out cheaper. ( apparently there are shops called Liddle and Aldiss that sells washing up liquid for like 29p)

Buy cheap, buy twice.

If these shocks are substantially better than the existing ones then the extra outlay makes sense. If there not, well it appears this sport is run like Government.
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Jop452



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PostSubject: Re Shock-horror   Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:00 pm

Interesting debate on shockers.....with feelings running high among current drivers, there needs to be another drivers meeting called, so all sides of the arguement can be put forward, and agreement reached, or this will rumble to the detriment of the sport......
I think the £140 plus is too expensive per shocker....some top drivers may be able to keep them on their cars a long time as mentioned on Stoxnet, but the lower graders that quite often provide the spectacle..they are not going to last as long....lets help to kep them on track, not price them out of the sport....

Also I keep hearing stories about some drivers bending the rules...that to some is what rules are for..but they have a Technical Scrutineer (isnt it Tim Mann??) so why have the cars not been fully inspected ( AND NOT BY APPOINTMENT) or have they??...puts the rumours to rest...
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:14 am

Well put jop452  cheers  COMMUNICATION is whats VITAL and is sadly lacking at present. Many well reasoned points raised on both Stoxnet and here and committee members have replied in their own manner without addressing the direct questions raised  Sad No No No 
Many of the parts used on stock cars today have only been vital as a result of better tyres being introduced eg. gun drilled half shafts/racing gearboxes (now with extra splines)/multiplate clutches ect. A back axle used to be fairly stock compared to today.........now it is a bespoke part requiring shortening/lightening/aftermarket gundrilled halfshafts/spool/torque arm mountings/panhard bar mounting..........why????? To take to extra power the cars can now put down to the track through the TYRES. To buy just this ready to race back axle now costs £££££££
Sort out the rule book/tyres and communication and we will be on the right track  Very Happy
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Two Putt Shakur

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Fri Jan 03, 2014 12:33 pm

Grafter wrote:
Many well reasoned points raised on both Stoxnet and here and committee members have replied in their own manner without addressing the direct questions raised  Sad No No No [/b]  Very Happy
It comes across that way as the silent response is deafening regarding the Protech Proposal. What are the views and opinions from Paul Hines, Mat Newson and Anita Newson for that matter.

A well constructed view and opinion has been put forward by Brian Gilbank, and I would like to hear a response to this, and I'm sure the drivers would too. Nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Surely Tracey Woodhall isn't suggesting from her recent post on Stoxnet that Mr Gilbank's comments are representing the views from Protech is she. Because that is what I believe is mildly insinuated from what I read into it.

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Zep

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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:28 am

Happy New year.
Jeez are we still rambling on about this?
I see they're up to 900 pages on 't other channel.

I spoke to my cat and she has her own thoughts about Dentabits and ProPlan or whatever it is they are all getting so moist about.

http://fuggit.blog.co.uk/
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Grafter



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sat Jan 04, 2014 12:32 am

Spoke to a shoe string (last season w/y grade) driver earlier and he thinks that the number of cars racing this coming season will be very similar to last. But he said he won't be putting Dampertech shocks on for 2015 and will miss that season and see what happens (if nothing then the engine is going in a kit car). He estimated, going on last seasons damage to shocks, he would have to find an extra £1000 to keep on top of repairs/replacements over his current shocks set-up.......he did go onto joke that he might crash a bit faster if he fitted them though  lol! 
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sausage



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PostSubject: Re: Shock-horror.....   Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:03 am

Monumental post just been added by #37 Chris cowley over on stoxnet.
Over the next day or two we will see exactly what forum posters are exactly all about  cheers .
I predict a page or two of posters getting down on there knees and as a collective completely change there strong opinions on the shockers subject.  Embarassed 


Ps, told you Marvin that this one was gonna go ballistic  lol! .
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