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 F2s on the edge of no return

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stevieg



Number of posts : 401
Age : 40
Localisation : Boston
Registration date : 2008-05-17

PostSubject: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:39 pm

Having seen the numbers drop rapidly over last 3 years mainly on Tarmac but also on shale have the 2s gone past salvaging the sport. Bank holiday Monday at Skegness. 8 cars must be the lowest ever there only 10 cars racing tonite. Will we see numbers like this at all tracks after world final next weekend.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:30 pm

Not really. Driver registrations are still good, mid 400's I believe, but the powers that be do need to sit down and have some serious discussions about costs and specifications of cars, the excess number of meetings and driver renumeration, not only amongst themselves, BUT WITH driver representatives as well.

There is a lot of talk about the rise of the Outlaws; okay they have about 40 registered drivers, but only four tracks, two of which are orc standard, two of which are independant dirt tracks, Scunthorpe, the jewel in the crown, Brampton, and Trent, and Swaffham, way out on a limb in Norfolk. Chances of further expansion, yes, enough to threaten Brisca, No.

The rise of Superstox in Scotland ? Again about thirty drivers, half ex Brisca, half newcomers, only one track to race on, hence chances of growth negligable.

Brisca F2 needs some serious attention from the powers that be I admit, but if enough people stand by it, and costs and fixtures are sensible reduced it will continue to be the market leader, in my opinion.

Carlton
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stevieg



Number of posts : 401
Age : 40
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Registration date : 2008-05-17

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:44 pm

Let's hope so before its to late apart from the south west all other tracks are well down on turn outs from last year mainly Tarmac. in my opinion if u haven't got a rce then it's not worth going to race nothing against them saw the market and done well but like faster go karts going round tho.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:15 pm

Stevieg, keep your thoughts and opinions coming fella,F2 needs imput and opinions from more than just me on this site.

F2 is in a hole at the moment, it needs as many people on the shovel to help keep digging it out.

Dig for victory as they used to say,

F2 needs you !!
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stevieg



Number of posts : 401
Age : 40
Localisation : Boston
Registration date : 2008-05-17

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:23 am

No worries Carlton enjoy going to watch f2 racing apart from championship meetings rest don't seem worth going to at the moment 10/15 car meetings can't do anybody any good.
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Dave Wayne

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Number of posts : 769
Registration date : 2007-07-18

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:13 am

Hopefully the introduction of the Zetec engine will see a revival in the sport in the same way that the Pinto did when it came in. At the moment it isn't quite quick enough for the F2s as it doesn't have the top end power. What it needs is some sort of restrictor putting onto the Pintos to eradicate that advantage and then the costs will plummet. Saloons are already benefitting from this as they use the bottom end torque rather than the top end power due to the higher weight of the cars.
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F2-Fan

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Age : 47
Localisation : South Derbyshire
Registration date : 2007-06-22

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:44 pm

From a conversation with the licensing officer he is still getting licence applications now for this season
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http://www.362racing.com
Premier

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Number of posts : 850
Age : 55
Localisation : Northwood Middx
Registration date : 2007-06-23

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:33 pm

Dave Wayne wrote:
Hopefully the introduction of the Zetec engine will see a revival in the sport in the same way that the Pinto did when it came in. At the moment it isn't quite quick enough for the F2s as it doesn't have the top end power. What it needs is some sort of restrictor putting onto the Pintos to eradicate that advantage and then the costs will plummet. Saloons are already benefitting from this as they use the bottom end torque rather than the top end power due to the higher weight of the cars.

Would it not be easier to have the ECU adjusted on the Zetec to bring it closer to the Pinto, then when the Pinto has died out the ECU can be de-tuned whenever the promoters desire a little less speed.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:57 pm

Carlton I can not believe that you are not concerned about just EIGHT cars at Skegg. I like you can remember when the pits at Skegg have been heaving with F2's.
Do you really think that the Outlaws are not having an effect on numbers in the Midlands and the East Coast?
I really do think you are under estimating the draw the Outlaws have or how big they are likely to get. You say they only have 4 tracks well what if they get a couple more?
I hope they go from strength to strength because the BRISCA promoters deserve all they get for the way F2 drivers have been treated in the last few years. Good luck to them I say.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:46 pm

Big Mac, I have been concerned about falling numbers in F2 for several seasons, and not just at Skeggy last week.

Hednesford, Birmingham, Northampton, Buxton, Cowdie and Barford have concerned me more than Skeggy a week ago.A F2 session at Coventry earlier this year got 35 cars, they used to turn that many away !!

If you go back 18 years you will find me harping on about the fact that there were to many meetings, in writing in various magazines, despite year on year growth numbers wise. Costs have got out of control again, fuels prices have gone through the roof.

Where are the Outlaws going to get another couple of tracks from ? Can't see any ORC affiliated tracks giving them dates, and certainly not any current BriSCA tracks, like wise Superstox, where do they go next ?

As I said things aint great, but they are a lot better than the state of the opposition.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:56 pm

Do you think the promoters are worried Carlton?
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:35 pm

The promotors need a good kick up the arris. The average 2's meeting is not a draw to most fans these days and promotors are mainly in the game to make money (either pay to race or fans through the turnstiles). Promotors have their say in too much these days and they need to step back and concentrate on promoting their events more.
The 2's are a great formula but have forgotten/lead a stray from its roots. What is needed is a strong set of core values/aims which can NEVER be broken. These would give a solid foundation to build on with everyone aware of the direction the sport is going in and its aims; thus a loyal and trusting group of both fans and drivers.
Maybe this is the ideal time to do this......forget trying to run zetecs and pintos side by side and start a new formula with just the zetecs. Then with the new principles and rule book (well written) in place we can move on.
If this were to be a formula for fans (rather than some sort of formula Ford pay to race formula for the drivers) then maybe the fans should assist in drawing up what they want to see from the racing they pay to watch.
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Dave Wayne

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Number of posts : 769
Registration date : 2007-07-18

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:03 pm

So let me get this right grafter. In a discussion about falling car numbers your answer is to start another formula ? How will that help ?
Or are you suggesting that F2 is replaced by the new formula ? Surely this would just encourage more drivers to join the Outlaw ranks rather than scrapping there £5k pinto engines ?
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:31 pm

You got it in one. Sometimes its best to cut your losses....a bit like a crumbling house on dodgy foundations; Just pull it down and build a new one properly. You know it makes sense in the long term.
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david



Number of posts : 159
Registration date : 2008-01-18

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:24 am

But why are the RCE cars so much better when all cars are built to exactly the same rules ?
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:46 am

Btw whats the latest on the Venray  debacle https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=nl&u=http://briscaf2.com/content/news/2015-world-cup.ashx&usg=ALkJrhhX74PgfBudC7EjMw4uehsq33RMXw ?
These sort of things can't instill confidence in the formula.
In answer to my own question (and uncanny timing)...... http://www.briscaf2.com/content/news/2015-world-cup-inquiry.ashx yes it has. Well done Gordon.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:18 pm

Big Mac, I cant answer that question Im afraid, you would have to ask the promoters themselves and as only Steve openly comes on hear and answers questions, you probably won't get the complete picture.

There are only a couple of promotions who I feel really have F2 in their heart and that is because they are F2 supporters and ex drivers.

As regards The Outlaws and Superstox by the way, no hard feelings from me, its your money, you can race what you want and where you want, I just dont personnally think either will be in a position to challenge F2 as a national sport.

Im an F2 fan and think reductions in meetings need to be made which will help drivers budget and plan for a season, I feel rule changes are needed where by one car can race both surfaces without major alterations if need be.

Carlton
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cain

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Registration date : 2007-07-04

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:30 am

It's no good banging on about the zetec, it can't save f2's. Go out and find a few hundred of them, you won't!
Picking an engine that is already hard to get doesn't solve the problem.
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mod77



Number of posts : 44
Registration date : 2010-11-10

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:57 am

Carlton regarding Outlaws only having 40 registered drivers there have been 69 drivers that have scored points this year and 35 drivers in their "World" Final. Considering its really their first proper season I would say that is amazing achievement.
Brisca F2 having 400 registered drivers is not really a true reflection as not all of them will ever race. I believe Peter Falding still has a F1 licence but cant see him ever racing again. Any idea on how many F2 drivers have actually raced this year.

As fuel costs are the lowest they have been for 5 years I dont that is an issue this year

Surely one of the biggest costs in F2 are tyres. After racing one meeting at Birmingham the tyres are scrap as the surface rips them to bits. Other tracks are more forgiving and you may get 3 or 4 meetings out of them.
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david



Number of posts : 159
Registration date : 2008-01-18

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:09 am

Carlton...the Outlaws are already having a major impact on F2's...just look at how the numbers have rapidly dropped...and look at the number of ex-brisca shale drivers are racing them...
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:44 pm

David, why would the number of ex Brisca shale drivers racing Outlaws have an effect on Skegness, its a tarmac track ?
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:06 pm

Before this goes any further on the F2 /Outlaw debate can i just clarify that my first love is F2, although I openly admit that the sport has problems at the moment that need addressing. I have no objection to anyone racing Outlaws or Superstox, where they race or when, its their money, their car, their time.

Mod77 you stated that 69 drivers have registered with the Outlaws this year, great well done, but is this registered and raced more than once, or does it include guest Warton drivers who have raced as well ? Surely they cant be classed as genuine Outlaws as they have , or used to have a completely open engine policy ?

Tyres and fuel with always be the drivers biggest cost I would have thought.

Anyway according to last months Unloaded this season so far 363 differant drivers have raced F2, last years total was 392, so with 23 meetings left in the season I would expect this total for this year to rise still further, and the yearly percentage of active drivers is usually around the 90% mark again according to figures published at the end of last season.

To be fair I would be interested in seeing what turnout the Outlaws could get at an out of season session on tarmac at say Birmingham or Northampton, but that would never happen would it ??
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:30 pm

Cain is right about the Zetec, good idea but much too late. Not many left so price will rise.
Speeding the Zetec engine up, or slowing the Pinto down may work on tarmac, but just means Mr Mitchell will win more on Shale.
Zetec engine for Shale, pinto for Tarmac would have been good years ago but unworkable then or now.
Can't see an answer myself, if I was still driving it would be Scunthorpe, but then it used to be New Brighton so?
Things don't change much.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:59 pm

Can anyone tell me when the Pinto stopped being produced, the Duratec and the Zetec likewise ?

A lot of time went into testing the Duratec, but very few took up the option, must be a reason why, cost, availability, reliability, restrictions ?

Along comes the Zetec. It is raved about by a lot of people, has been hailed as the sports saviour from a engine cost point of view, then all of a sudden its not quite as good as it seems, theres not many around, they only last twenty meetings, is it all bluff from people who dont want the sport to progress ?

So when the pinto has gone, if a duratec is naff, a zetec is naff, what next ?!!
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:08 pm

Not bluff Carlton.
Don't know when the Pinto stopped, but there were a lot of them, they are used in many forms of Motor Sport, Kit Cars etc. All engine builders have a pile in the back that they gave £50 or less for.
There are still many more Pintos on Ebay than Zetec. Difference is the Zetec is ready to go bar the conversion kit.
The Pinto needs £3000 spending on it. You cant bore the Zetec, you can bore and sleeve the Pinto. So they are around longer.
Many Zetecs were lost in the Governments Scrapage system to encourage people to buy new cars.
All got weighed in and at that time few had a use for the engine.
If Brisca had acted before the Scrapage might have been a different story.
20 meetings out of a Zetec isn't bad when you consider the cost. It is a little slower on tarmac, but similar power on shale with a different driving technique I hear. Just not available in sufficient numbers any more.
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