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 F2s on the edge of no return

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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:36 pm

Thank you Trimal.

So if the Zetec or Duratec isnt the answer, what is ?

Any other mass produced engine that can be used for our sport, at a reasonable cost, with a reasonable reliability ?

I trust then the Outlaws are using the pinto, but i have been told the Superstox use the Zetec ; what chance there future if availability is as bad as it sounds ?
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cain

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Number of posts : 291
Age : 44
Localisation : Dersingham
Registration date : 2007-07-04

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:46 pm

You find em in any numbers carlton, I defy you to do it.
I know for a fact they are hard to come by as I have looked for many months also asked lots of contacts in the scrap trade,not sat on my arse and claimed otherwise
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cain

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Number of posts : 291
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Registration date : 2007-07-04

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:54 pm

Your asking people what engine they think should be used?
Ask the promoter's they've had answers to every other question regarding 2's, now it's broken they look elsewhere for answers.
As the old saying go's " it's no good dropping your pants once you've shat them"
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:12 pm

Cain, Im not hunting for anything for Brisca F2 promoters.

I was asking out of interest as an F2 fan.

My links with F2 as an official were cut five years ago when the BSCDA went into dormancy.

Im just a pay on the gate fan nowadays, who provides facts figures and articles for magazines on the sport I love.

So as a way forward, and please note previous comments, aint got a problem with who you are, or where you race, what are the Outlaws future plans for engines, Pinto till it dies and is buried, or arnt you looking that far forward as an organisation into the future ?

State again not looking for an argument, love your theory of keeping older cars alive and kicking, look forward to seeing where you as an organisation are in twelve months time.
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:22 pm

I asked an engine builder what next? He shrugged and said I've got plenty of Pintos, and bits are readily available.
So in my mind another 5 years, probably 10 at least with the decline in driver attendance.
Not a problem to the Outlaws, just use what the others use and keep it cheap and cheerful.
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:56 am

Stockcar racing eh........we love going round in circles lol! a topic from a couple of years ago http://allstoxforum.niceboard.com/t9831-anyone-know-the-answer-to-this
So maybe its time to lead and not just pick up the left overs? How about contacting this company to see if they want an engine testing in one of the harshest arenas known to man http://www.pinnacle-engines.com/technology/ . Yes its a sleeve valve!.....similar principles have been applied to engines used in Deltic trains and even aircraft like the bristol hercules.
It probaly wouldn't last 5 minutes but it appears there is a need for a new engine and a greener one would be a plus if it did work.
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steven



Number of posts : 1258
Registration date : 2007-07-06

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:47 pm

Same conversations and suggestions were made about BriSCA F1's and National Saloons over the last decade.

At the same time, neither can one bury one's head in the sand as there have been some 'patchy' turn outs on occasion particularly on tarmac as well as good ones.
Driver numbers licensed in 2015 are slightly up on 2014.
BriSCA F2 has become 'hugely competitive' in recent years and imo opinion BriSCA has worked hard at 'trying' to keep the sport cost effective against a backdrop of many teams pursuing that thousandth of a second [ where the real cost is ] and 'policing it'. More recently considerable work has gone into 'defining' and 'clarification' of the rule book - many thanks to Adrian Blackwell.
When the BSCDA self imploded, BriSCA undertook forums as a source of advice - the big issue is diversity of opinion and different visions of the sport, ie some would like to see an 'out and out' racing sport, others want it bringing back in hand.
The sport went through a lot of rule changes and now is trying to achieve some stability. A good example is future of engines, cost v performance and much as it may seem easy to be decisive, not always the case as BriSCA has to cover a wide parish of drivers with differing aspirations.
Imo the challenge is with the 'rump' of the sport, whites and yellows - who are not racing as much, whether a meeting has 10 cars or 40 cars, the Reds and blues ARE supporting the meetings. Many of the rump need re engaging and some ideas have been floated for 2016 in this area.
It is easy to blame 'tyres' or a particular 'car builder' , time of the month etc, reality the sport has evolved into something extremely competitive which is being regulated. However, all oval formulae are also cyclical - In Holland the sport is expanding rapidly although there are tarmac issues also there BUT I think 33 cars are coming over here, biggest ever influx over the WoS / World Masters weekend [ not seen next weeks entry list as yet ]

One thing is for certain, it isn't 'broke' however as ever there are things to be aware of and improve - There are still [ in our area ] new drivers coming in.

There have ALWAYS been competing formulae [ we actually ran one in the late nineties very successfully - but returned to BriSCA ] and as that grew without the benefit of structure, the politics and spiralling costs inevitably kicked in. Nothing changes here!

If anything it's the pace of technical innovation and development and race team commitment that has coloured the sport in recent years and almost divided it into 'front runners' and those who accept they are coming 10th - 20th and then subsequently lose their mojo understandably and that brings apathy. The skill is or will be how to 'bridge that' with some form of 5 year plan.

Identifying the issues are always relatively easy, prescribing a 'quick-fix-it' solution that pleases all is the biggest challenge to resolve and when you attend various meetings and listen to diversity of views, not an overnight next step in evolution.

F2 is at a point in time in a cycle similar to ones every formula goes through. But it is far from 'broken'! There has been some outstanding racing and - yes - there have been a handful of 'worrying' car counts and food for thought





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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:48 pm

Why only pay the top three Steve?
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:46 am

Thanks for your view Steve. The one saving grace for F1's is that the Americans still love a carb' and the aftermarket is massive. So unlike the F2's with an obsolete production engine and the casting moulds supposedly destroyed the F1's are more stable. Though i have heard talk of allowing in a seald ali block crate engine in the futre to curb costs ( something like 6 grand for a 600bhp unit).
So is there a aftermarket lower power crate motor available in the US that would work?
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beaks

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Age : 101
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Registration date : 2008-09-28

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:54 pm

I think the main issue is how many engines are used during the year and the cost of the pinto's.

That's why people have wood for the cheaper zetec option.

Perhaps now is the time to detune the pinto, make is less expensive and more reliable.

And hell, if it's more reliable there'll be more to go round as the years drag on.

Common sense is easy and free.

Just a shame it's rarer than a decent 4:2 diff.

Ian B
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steven



Number of posts : 1258
Registration date : 2007-07-06

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:54 pm

Some sensible posts from some experienced people [ Beaks & Grafter ] - As a non technical person, I think BriSCA as a governing body have to be cautious in decision making because any decision one way or the other potentially affects so many drivers [ who may park up ] and sometimes in a 'no win' situation, what you say about the Pinto's makes absolute sense and has been a subject of discussion. Unfortunately sometimes caution is viewed as inability to make a decision but when you attend meetings and spend many hours on such subjects there are so many pros - and cons - that what appears the obvious becomes not quite so obvious, if that makes sense, hence a cautious approach.

BriSCA generally has its advantages and disadvantages in it's method of decision making - both F1 and F2 as the decision making committee approach is part of the DNA and generally the former far outweighs the latter. There are over 400 drivers and is operated differently to for example Spedeworth where Deane can make an absolute decision on technical matters and will sink or swim by that.

BriSCA always has a more 'consensus' approach and therefore can be perceived as slower!

F2 is a brilliant formula with STILL many new drivers entering but it's at a change in it's cycle. Things that were fashionable several years ago, probably a bad example would be 7 v 218 Demo Derbies - Times and mood have changed and fans want to see them [ my own personal opinion ] 'race each other' for position than bury each other
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:42 pm

In my opinion, drivers want to race each other, apart from those they don't like!
Fans want them all to crash.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:54 pm

I take it your not going to answer a perfectly good question then Steve? I'm sure there are many disgruntled F2 drivers would like to no why as well as me.
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garfield

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Registration date : 2007-09-05

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:08 pm

The fact there's more cars book in for the world of shale a week Friday than the world final this weekend kind of tells you something IMO
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:31 pm

Now now big mac. It has been duly noted in the past that Steve is a man of many words but few answers.....even reiterating some less interesting points more than once. Sometimes he's rather selective in what he chooses to reply to but that is his perogative (at least he comes on to forums and adds a little spice; unlike most other promotors).
So to answer on his behalf......I believe it's because he can. The drivers committee is no more and the promotors are in the job to make a few quid. And if the number of cars at some events gets much lower then there shouldn't be much trouble getting a paid place.
So its back to where i came in.....the promotors are in charge and if the formula doesn't pull in enough folk through the turnstiles to make it pay then it could become a pay to race formula. So its in the promotors interest to steer the formula in the right direction. But it must take a lot of trust between different promotions to put in similar amounts of time/effort and money and then share out the rewards.
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Grafter



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Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:27 am

Well after a very brief search of the www i found this company specialising in aftermarket 4 pot oval track engines.....even making their own blocks http://www.esslingeracing.com/# and a video if you are patient http://www.powerblocktv.com/episode/HP2012-16/building-a-competitive-dirt-track-engine#.Ve9rnWhwZJ9
So there are long term options out there cheers
Update....just had a text telling me ford have reintroduced a couple of their old engine blocks (with upgrades....but don't believe the bit about reinforcement of the clutch housing bolt bosses?) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-RACING-BRAND-NEW-X-FLOW-1600-ENGINE-BLOCK-/171919638333?hash=item2807357f3d and http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-RACING-NEW-LOTUS-TWIN-CAM-1600-ENGINE-BLOCK-/351503077144?hash=item51d7374f18
But you never know when Ford may pull the plug on the production of these again; so i would be more inclined to trust a dedicated aftermarket supplier committed to the sport. These seem a bit of an expensive option, even to myself, but if it gives engine reliability and a stable future for the sport then the figures start to make sense.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:39 pm

Grafter I already no the answer and I really didn't expect Steve to reply. But what really does get my goat is when the promoters say the trouble that the 2's are in is nothing to do with them. That's simply not true. And anyone that' has been involved with formula for a long time knows that. I'm not saying it's all there fault,it's not but over the years they have slowly got there way with things that drivers are dead against and it's now beginning to take its toll.
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steven



Number of posts : 1258
Registration date : 2007-07-06

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:32 am

If it is about prize money being paid down 1 - 3 then I would be surprised to be honest and reality of life in that one is in part commercial, many other similar formulae are actually now pay to race which is not even under contemplation.
This has not been an influence of the continual 'new drivers' that do join the sport each year.

The lack of feel good factor of F2 is by enlarge the gulf in competition terms that has developed due to the rapid 'evolution' - One or two rule changes in recent years I am researching to gain a better understanding as I am not overly technical however, do hold a firm belief that changes are made for genuinely the right reason and to try and keep a lid on costs or technical creep....It is not easy - there are some ideas on the drawing board for 2016
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:56 pm

At the end of the day 99% of all oval drivers know the sport is a hobby....they do it because they love it. So to get a financial reward for doing well is nice but it is more about honour and racing in a honest formula with a stable future.
Fishing is a good example of a massively popular participation sport. If they take part in amatch they pay a fee and that gets shared out at the end of the day between winners and a percentage to the lake owner.
So drivers should drive......promotors should promote and the running of the formula should done by an independent group (knowledgeable fans) who have no vested intrest in either winning or making money.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:42 pm

Grafter for Chairman I say !!
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:58 pm

Not so sure about knowledgeable fans myself.
Almost rather let the promotors carry on.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:28 pm

Trimal, Vice president !!

Dont know who Grafter or Trimal are, but they generally speak a lot of sense, and know alot about the sport.
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:47 pm

Will have to decline, can't claim to be independent Carlton, have an interest in winning now and then.
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:58 am

Well thanks for the vote of confidence Carlton but i to am not independent of being accused of bias. Maybe it would be better for the Veterans association to have an input, with all their knowledge (and possibly time to spare).....after all without a future there would be no veterans joining their club. Either way it needs a group of folk who want to see the promotors make a living/invest in their stadia and the drivers enjoy their racing.
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:35 pm

Ah well, I was accused of being biased towards the drivers on more than one occasion every day so I'll join the club then !!

Need another driver forum over the closed season me thinks, thrash a few thinks out.

Anyway, good luck to everyone in this weekends World Final, may the best man win, and be as good a Champion as George MacMillan has been .
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