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 F2s on the edge of no return

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STU75



Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2007-11-13

PostSubject: F2    Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:52 pm

Having watched the decline in numbers of F2 in the past year, really it is no surprise, and it is only due to the hard core of fans that F1 is not in a similar position. There are several possible reasons, 1) Too many meetings, 2) Insufficient rewards , 3)Car specification is too high tech'. However, and this is in my opinion the crux of the matter, In order for drivers to be adequately rewarded for appearing and putting on a show for the public, are the promotors relying too much on the hard core supporters, when they should be out there selling the sport in general to Joe Public. In times past, any area that had racing within, for example a twenty mile radius would put posters in prominent places, and advertise in the local press. For example, I live within 15 miles of Stoke and Hednesford, and never in recent years have seen any form of advertising. This weekend , the F2 World Final is at Hedno', no local advertising. I often speak to folk in the locality about racing, and generally they comment 'Is Hednesford/Stoke still open?' Come on you promotors, start actually promoting! Get the message out there, get bums on seats, money through the turnstiles, pay the drivers start money and encourage them to put on a show.
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:22 pm

To be fair to Startrax, they do a considerable amount of local newspaper advertising, and also use Groupon from time to time.
Admittedly much is aimed at the Banger / Caravan / Rollover type of show but that's what brings new people in.
They know regular fans will turn up anyway, but there aren't enough of us these days.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:33 pm

And some People say they're not bothered by the Outlaws progress. Don't make me laugh if they're not bothered then why has Mr wood told the Stockskarts if they race at the Outlaw world final there will be no Incarace dates next year.
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STU75



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Registration date : 2007-11-13

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:05 am

Whoops, Mr Wood, we do not want to slip back 50 years to the famous 'split' when there were two parallel F2 formulae. Perhaps this is a time for consolidation and a level playing field with one F2 formula, a compromise of BriSCA, Superstox, Outlaw and whatever else is lurking. At a time when a different engine is coming in, what better opportunity?
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:41 am

I don't care what woody says I'm going down to have a look tonight.

And the best bit is Adults £11 Children 10-16 (get this Incarace) £5!!

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steven



Number of posts : 1258
Registration date : 2007-07-06

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:49 am

Hednesford have done quite a considerable local radio campaign this weekend - we use the Sentinel, Daily Mirror and considerably wider press elsewhere so that is incorrect.
Mr Woods stopped the StoxKarts going to Scunthorpe, i think not, but perhaps that is for Ian to comment upon.
With regard to BriSCA's view on open wheeled F2 formulae, it always has been to have one formula, splinters only damage the whole and water it down. With regard the Outlaws I have no idea of the set up so cannot comment on that.
Evolution of car spec - and expense I believe is the root cause of any apathy

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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:22 am

Wel well well......I don't know if I am more shocked or saddened by your comment about the Outlaws Steve (or was that a smokescreen?). I could put it in my own words but this example sums things up https://www.hrbartender.com/2012/business-and-customers/first-rule-of-business-know-your-competition/
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STU75



Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2007-11-13

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:43 am

Fair comment guys, I do not take the Sentinel, so stand corrected. There are, however several other local papers which cover the surrounding area if it is any help Steven, Star group and Stafford Newsletter. Are posters a thing of the past?
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trimal



Number of posts : 152
Localisation : Littleborough
Registration date : 2008-05-27

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:31 pm

Still have a couple of Mike Parker posters in my loft.
They used to work well for him. Open a track, flood the place with posters, 3000 through the gate.
The laws have changed with regard to fly posting now. Promoters are probably wary of getting blamed for displaying them.
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STU75



Number of posts : 4
Registration date : 2007-11-13

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:12 pm

There were always regular 'legal' pitches for posters round East Anglia, those posting got a complimentary ticket or two, shops, petrol stations etc. worth a shot?
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Adam563f2

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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:46 am

Of the 36 World Finalists for the Outlaws last night, I reckon around 20 of them are ex BriSCA. All the race results were dominated by ex BriSCA drivers (there was even a win for a CURRENT F1 driver) and there were a lot of familiar faces in the crowd, including the F1 British Champion!

Having been to a meeting, I can totally understand why they are taking off in the way that they are. Little things such as a trophy for the top 3 in each race - they make a difference!

I'm not sure what other tracks they could possibly expand to, but if you take all tracks running Outlaws across England, drivers already have a lot of places to race!

Something needs to be done with the F2 rule book ASAP, or there will be more and more people jumping ship.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:13 pm

The racing last night was very good. I really enjoyed the evening, as Adam says I can see why they are taking off.

BRISCA you really do need to look at your prices Adults £11 but everyone listen to this £5 a child and children are classed 10- 18 yes that's right 18!!! Mr Wood take note!

The things that did not do it any good. Starts were shocking. None of the track staff seemed to know what was going on and making it up as they went along.The back straight marshals seemed to wave their flags for no apparent reason. But that's the only moan I can think of.
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Grafter



Number of posts : 2114
Registration date : 2007-12-07

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:24 pm

It would seem that there is a list as long as your arm of individuals perceived issues with Brisca F2.Having had a quick look at the F2 rulebook it would seem a bit of a task to build a car wich complied with all the rules for a novice......knowing a few drivers/mechanics who strrugle to read let alone write! More pictures along the lines of a Ikea flat pack assembly instructions book would be easier to follow. There were quite a few areas left open to personal interpretation i thought but on the whole far more detailed than the F1's version.
As for admission pricing the Outlaws have it about right but still not as good as Santa pod/numerous circuit racing events/royal international air tattoo or the royal highland show ect (all FREE for under 16's). I still find it hard to believe that Coventry have been liasing with Santa Pod to learn off each other, yet our premier venue is still so far behing in its organisation and all round spectacle http://www.santapod.co.uk/e_flame.php
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:35 pm

Big Mac your last paragraph says a lot, that will no doubt be noted at BriSCA towers !!

Great to hear the racing was good though on admittedly a very well prepared track.

Is there an entry fee for the Outlaws, ie do they pay to race ? What driver admission do they get, driver plus one or any other scheme ? Is there any prize money on the races, or just trophies for top three in every race, or was that a World Final only thing ?

Cars racing, what sort of age are they, new, old,five year, ten year ?

Adam, who was the current F1 driver racing ?
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Adam563f2

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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:46 pm

Yeah the marshalling left quite a bit to be desired, but then again it does at most tracks!

Carlton - 166 (866) Bobby Griffin. I haven't seen the ones much this year, but he's definitely been racing, possibly a race winner?


Last edited by Adam563f2 on Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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carlton



Number of posts : 1575
Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:50 pm

Thank you Adam, means he has raced F1, F2 and Outlaw in same season, real budget racer !!!
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Adam563f2

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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:46 pm

Regarding the ages of the cars: there were a few that seemed pretty new (maybe 2/3 years old) and then a couple of older cars.  There was a white top car that was probably 20 odd years old, and was running 7.3 Avons on the front.

I did notice people throwing 3/4 new tyres on for the World Final though!

Also forgot to mention in case people haven't seen the photos doing the rounds on Facebook - Guy Martin was there last night!
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carlton



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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:48 pm

Thank you Adam, much appreciated.
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big mac



Number of posts : 220
Registration date : 2009-07-21

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:51 pm

Oh yeah Carlton you could tell it was an independent run track. But that can be sorted out, with training and someone actually telling them what to do.The track facilities are just as got if not better than some ORCii run tracks it puts Skeggy to shame.

Thing is mate don't think they are going to go away or be a big flash in the pan. Because after the racing I sore last night you can see that the drivers are all enjoying it and really do feel better off where they are. There are more tracks in the pipeline and with a bit more organised set up this lot are only going to get better.

Just telling it as it is..
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steven



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Registration date : 2007-07-06

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:56 pm

The end is Near ?

Firstly, I speak as someone who believe in ‘National’ formulae. It is interesting to observe current opinion and comment and comparison between a 60 year old formula and then more recent ‘derivatives of’ .
I spent an enjoyable afternoon and evening at Hednesford and, before I start, tarmac isn’t my particular religion whatever the oval motorsport – and as much as I personally respect Drag Racing, without mild interest, admission prices whether a fiver or £20 or the biggest advertising campaign in the world wouldn’t tempt me to cross the road to see 2 cars race over a ¼ mile – BUT lot’s of people enjoy that. Similarly without an interest in oval racing, I doubt the same would apply to me in terms of racing on the hard stuff, I enjoy ‘dirt’!  That said, interest allows me to also enjoy some tarmac racing – I also appreciate there are as many people who feel the same about shale.
I ramble, last night at Hednesford, great show, some controversy, F2’s racing, more crashes ‘preferred’ however drivers on top of their game and extremely fast! Europes best drivers and some time and effort invested.
Equally, I would believe 36 cars on ‘shale’ – smaller ,racer friendly track with some familiar names would equally be a good night out.

But there, respectfully the comparison ends.

Whilst there are some who have many opinions about BriSCA [ F1 as well as 2! ] and no doubt a rule book that has evolved from over 6o years of solid experience, it would be affair observation that there has been a technical revolution in recent years, brought about as much by the drivers as opposed to encouraged by the organisers – Indeed, it is a game of cat and mouse!  The desire is for more ‘cost effective’ racing and a more level playing field. I think would be something we all would share. We currently have a very good and robust rule book, and as has been seen, far more policing is being undertaken – that applies to F1 as much as F2.
I spoke to several drivers last night about the ‘state of play’ and jointly we all agreed that the formula was far from doomed and there need a much more and deserved upbeat outlook – However, there was also a consenus amongst those several drivers that they did not have a particular view  or quick fix to a perceived problem – which is the formula has become highly competitive and professional.

With regard derivative formulae – which first started in 1960 when Les Eaton split from BriSCA to introduce Supers, over many,many decades there have been F2 type formula.  The formula gaining ‘most’ hype recently is the Outlaws – nothing against them, indeed as a promoter in the late 1990’s we ran them – almost a promoters ‘dream’ – they paid to race, received little or no prize money and a relaxed approach to rules which inevitably does decrease racer costs but as a formula gets going has the disadvantage of potentially increasing costs. In the 90’s the Outlaw movement were a great bunch of lads whose desire was to keep it cheap – Indeed, one of those then is the insipirator now – Daz.

Setting up respectfully, an activist derivative formula is the simplest thing in the world, find sufficient drivers who want pastures new, find a few tracks that will run them, even more attractive when there is no cost to the promote – and lets go racing ! It obviously is attractive, lesser drivers can become bigger goldfish in a smaller pond, it resurrects a market for second hand BriSCA stock, becomes a ‘nice little earner’ for one or two people and resrurrects a few drivers who have genuinely become disenchanted with the competitive revolution of BriSCA F2.
What makes it much easier to ‘get off the ground’ is a stock of existing cars developed as part of the solid 60 years organisation, the roots of an established and definitive rule book that has had considerable blood,sweat and tears poured over it over 60 years, nick it, and loosely apply it to BriSCA F2 – Mark II……That is not rocket science – No different to what is done by the many non Orci tracks and formulae that plagurise the huge works and investments of said ORCi / BriSCA promoters.

Equally, and be fair, compare like with like, Outlaws and BriSCA on shale !

I genuinely have no issue with ‘me too’ formulae and wish them success as long as support of one does not rubbish the other. BriSCA F2 Stock Car Racing is and always will be hopefully the European class that all drivers competitively would aspire to – that’s what I believe, I equally respect that everyone has a different mantra, budget and desire – remembering it should be fun and that’s the splendid thing we have in this country, choice.
There will always things to be learned and 60 years will continue – It is always harder to ‘lead’ as a major formulae, always much easier to plagurise and adapt.
BriSCA F2 is alive and kicking, it’s a broad parish with a big cross section of aspirations, tracks and of course surfaces – it’s biggest strength ? It’s drivers! Neither should there be head in the sand approach.
Out of ALL F2 type formulae in the UK, BriSCA is the biggest and longest established and remains the strongest. It is also an easy target for detractors! It is in part of a development cycle following a rapid revolution, it will move forward and does learn and doubtless like the same issues that beset F1 and National Saloons in their respective cycles – they evolved and now at the peak.
I am proud of BriSCA F1 and F2 and grown up with it, equally I am respectful o other organisations / splinters, they are inevitable as there is freedom of choice and rightly or wrongly in all walks of life, the grass will always seem greener. There always have been, always will be a huge number of independently operated tracks and formulae, F2 type included, that isn't going to change - To date, there are several blends of Outlaws around the country. If they can be brought together, tar,dirt and shale as one race division with a single rule book any time soon I would sit back and admire - In the meantime lets be constructive and respectful and get on with life!
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carlton



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Registration date : 2007-09-14

PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:07 pm

Again thank you Big Mac, again as I said earlier in this excellent forum debate, Ive no problem with who you are, what you race who you race with and how much it costs you, its your money, your time your car.

Yes I admit I am "fishing" for answers regards the Outlaws, Im an oval racing fan full stop, and admit I am intrigued as to why this formula is taking off. The majority of meetings are on shale, yet shale was seemed to be the safe haven for F2 in the last few years. Lower costs, more fun, 30 to 35 meetings a year maximum, with older, lower spec cars competitive.

Scunthorpe is an excellent race track/facility, I did all three of the F2 sessions there and was gutted when it decided to go back to an independant status.

As I asked earlier, is there a financal reward to the racing, driver plus etc, etc.

Be interesting to see where the Outlaws are in twelve months time.

Carlton
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Adam563f2

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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:12 pm

To be fair, apart from Warton which runs different engine / wheel & tyre rules, I think an Outlaw F2 can race at any of the other tracks without needing to change anything. How "national" the rules actually are, I'm not sure. From what I know of who races where etc, I think there were Standlake, Swaffham and Grimley visiting drivers last night.

My praise for the formula should not be taken as being "on the turn" and heading for the darkside. I chose to go last night as I'd never visited Scunthorpe and was impressed by the entry price, amount of races on the programme and the anticipated turnout of cars. I still consider BriSCA to be "proper" F2s, but I do see why more and more drivers (and ex drivers) are looking to the Outlaws as a more suitable alternative - especially when you consider Coventry and Mildenhall might not be around much longer - there needs to be somewhere to throw an F2 car around on shale!
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carlton



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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Again Adam, thank you for yours comments, like the last liner, sad but true, thinks might look a lot differant in two seasons time, for a lot of people and not just F2.
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Adam563f2

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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:51 pm

I did hover around the 732 car a couple of times last night to see if I could ask Daz about licence costs / entry fees etc, but with him having 7! cars to keep an eye on he was rather busy.

I'm the same as you Carlton in the sense of wanting to understand the appeal and see what draws people towards them. It did seem pretty laid back last night, but then again, meetings at Arena and Mildenhall are/were always like that.

Tyres seemed a big difference last night. From memory there were people using: Yokos, 7.3 Avons, D Mac knobblys, Kingpins (popular with the banger lot I believe) and a couple of other road tyres. Maybe there's a lot of money to be saved there?
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carlton



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PostSubject: Re: F2s on the edge of no return   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:41 pm

Cost of tyres seem to be a constant on going pain and expense for drivers. I do know the original Outlaw idea was a limited differant type of similar tyre rule.

A lot of people I know harp on about the good old days, and yes they were, you and your dad were there as well, when the avon 7.3 was the tyre for the sport im sure.

When softener first came in it was a good idea, gave more life, and more track time to an old tyre, but then it got abused and we ended up with the Yoki.

So a new back to basic f2 formula comes to greet us, has a decent first few months, decent number of registrations, then come the big race of their year, some alledgedly bang on four brand new tyres ?

Start of a slippery slope by the sound of it !! LOL
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